Quest Fail Stage 1
As I now understand, "Quest Fail Stage" column is listing the quests that will be failed or become unavailable upon reaching the corresponding stage in the game, not after finishing it.
This understanding didn't come naturally and cost me several hours of gameplay due to some anonymous contributors adding quests to the first row of the table.
Quests being listed in the first column make it look like those are the quests that will be failed upon finishing Stage 1, because otherwise it would mean that(in accordance to the actual format of this table) those are the quests that will be failed immediately upon just starting the game.
I see this as an issue in need of addressing. If, and I am not sure on this one, there are quests, that get failed mid-stage(Grim Tidings upon A Rude Awakening, maybe) — the Stage 1 should be split into 2 or, possibly, more stages and the rest shifted forward. If the people adding those quests misunderstood the format of this table — they should be shifted to Stage 2 "Quest Fail Stage". Or if these quests are not actually stage-sensitive — theys hould be purged from the "Quest Fail Stage" column of this table.
I am not familiar enough with the stage progression yet to make the appropriate changes — someone with more experience should fix the table..
On a sidenote: The transitional Main Story quests should probably be highlighted somehow. I think I'll get at it at some point later.
Erquint (talk) 10:20, August 2, 2016 (UTC)
- Afaik the articles Stage 1, Stage 2 etc are correct - they also clearly explain what needs to be done when and what fails when.
- It would be simpler to link to those stages and deleted the table - this page is supposed to just be a category listing sidequests.
- the table IS difficult to understand - it also duplicates the Stage 1 etc articles
- As you noticed parts of the table are just wrong -
- I'm going to delete and link to useful articles - this page is a. wrong b. misleading c.contains information about stuff it shouldn't have
- This info is duplicated at Stage 1 etc, partially at Category:Story_Progression_Stages and at Side Quest Progression - and probably somewhere else too.
- They should probably all be merged.
- If you need the old page it can be seen here http://dragonsdogma.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Sidequests?oldid=251322
- I agree that the table did not belong on a category page but it provided a handy representation of Side Quest Progression and I don't approve it being removed completely instead of being moved to a different article and reworked if my approval is worth anything in this matter.
- I don't see referring to it by a history link in a talk page of a category page as the most elegant solution unless it's a temporary measure.
- Merging them all into Side Quest Progression seems sane.
- The issue of the number of actual "stages" still bugs me. What is the intrinsical definition of the staging in the game? Is it purely abstract? If it is — then shouldn't there be more stages? (Referring to the "Grim Tidings" note added in http://dragonsdogma.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Sidequests?diff=prev&oldid=170416 assuming it is valid.)
- Practically speaking, I understand though, that it's generally a safe approach to take note of the stage progression main story missions and get every possible sidequest done before it.
- Erquint (talk) 10:20, August 2, 2016 (UTC)
- Added the old table to Story Progression Stages
- I've tried to tidy more stuff up - there's quest stuff scattered all over the place - the key articles are (as of now)
- Side Quests
- And Story Progression Stages also duplicated at Stage 1, Stage 2, Stage 3, Stage 4, Stage 5, Stage 6 and Stage 7 (post-game).
- There is no main quest walkthrough apart from the separate articles.
- There's also List of Dragon's Dogma Quests
- I tried to tidy it up more but I found that even the Stage articles contradict one another on what quests fail when.. For example in one place they say Lost and Found but be done in stage 1, in another stage 2.. so I gave up.
- All the info in the table is duplicated at the "Stage" articles - with more detail.
- I was going to merge them all to make a "main and side quest walkthrough" - but as noted above there were contradictions.
- afaik the "Stages" are made up - maybe by someone on this wiki - I think they are based on when shop inventory updates and when new escort quest sets become available
- I also cannot approve of the table being deleted or obscured. I agree the Side Quests stuff is a bit of a mess, but that table is VERY helpful for many players. And I used and heavily edited it to make my fairly definitive Hero Achievement Steam Guide.
- I don't mean to get all preachy, but it is very important that edits do not reduce the overall knowledge and information of the Wikia. Cleaning stuff up is great, but we cannot just remove stuff because it's messy. I don't have much time to work on this, so I'll have to rely on you two and others to help.
- As you may have seen, I added the precise times every side quest fails at the bottom of the Category:Sidequests page under Notes. I think this is one of the most valuable sections for players to quickly check this information. So perhaps this could be better named or displayed elsewhere. But removing this is a very bad idea, IMO.
- XuEn: I see you changed the Side Quests page formatting a bit and removed some of the headings. I think this makes the page less readable. I'd prefer if we could somehow make it more clean and organized.
- Brumbek (talk) 17:45, August 2, 2016 (UTC)
- XuEn, shop inventory updates seems like a good guess. NPCs also make it very clear sometimes(as does Ser Maximilian just before Come to Court) but not at all at other times. I don't think escort quests are a solid indication, as I just got an escort quest for Reynard during the stage before Come to Court but only after I finished the Miasmite part of Search Party.
- As I understand, much of the information on the topic is speculative and some entries are misleading or plainly false. In this case we need a dedicated tester. I could back up my saves, arm up with DDDAFix and do my own testing run, checking availability of each quest in the game after completing any, but I'm in the middle of my first ever run of the game and would like to finish it at least once before doing this.
- Brumbek, I tried adding you on Steam for a consultation on this one(MurderChrist the NecroLord is my current alias) but I guess you're getting bombarded with friend requests as it is because of your modding work.
- As for the "it is very important that edits do not reduce the overall knowledge and information of the Wikia" part, I'm sure XuEn based this decision on the fact that the table just represented the information on Side Quests to one degree or another without adding new information but the "contradictions" remark makes it all quite ambiguous; The table is misleading and should probably be reworked before being merged into Side Quests.
- How accurate, would you say, your guide on Steam is? How much of the information in it you tested yourself as opposed to gathered from Internet?
- I'm feeling pretty sure that Stage 1 should be split into two stages — one before Rude Awakening and another after. Seems like a major enough occurrence in terms of main story progression — the game is just starting to pick up pace.
- Erquint (talk) 22:51, August 2, 2016 (UTC)
- Hi everyone, first thank you all for caring about the game! I adore it so much! I didn't mean to be overly harsh before. Let me say that my Steam Guide is extremely accurate and detailed in regard to both when Main Quests start and when Side Quests become available and are cancelled. I daresay it is perhaps definitive because it is based on 200 hours this January over six playthroughs in addition to my 200 hours on the PS3 version. Plus I had quite a few Steam users test it for me so I could correct issues.
- So actually, my guide is more accurate than the Wikia on quest timing stuff. I realized this when I made the guide, but I was honestly too overwhelmed to try to merge my accurate findings with the Wikia. Part of the issue was how unwieldy the Wikia is with so many quest page variations.
- So not to boast, but I'd be very suprised if my Steam Guide had any errors. I'd encourage all of us to use my guide as a reference when we have questions because I was VERY precise in writing all of it. Specifically, the Appendix Cancellation Points at the end of my guide is pure gold in regard to avoiding missed quests.
- I do think the "Stages" concept is solid despite being unofficial. The game does certainly have clearly divided main quest chunks. Again, see my guide for very specific start/stop times.
- Thank you again for helping sort of merge all this data somehow.
- PS: Erquint, about splitting Stages, the danger is having too many Stages makes them less helpful as bookmarks. I'd encourage us to base Stages on playtime rather than actual events. However, I do agree that Stage 1 makes more sense to split right after reaching Gran Soren, which completes Off With Its Head. Stage 2 starting at your first visit to Gran Soren makes a LOT of sense, and all later stages shifting. I can easily edit my Steam Guide to match this change also.
- Brumbek (talk) 23:20, August 2, 2016 (UTC)
- Just a couple of points if anyone is planning to add work
- (important) There are a lot of links to the Stage 1 etc articles - if anyone wants to split them it's probably safer to use "stage 1a" "stage 1b" etc or similar. (or there'll be a big mess in all the linking articles)
- In terms of the quest design - if you want some extra insight see the GDC talk (some way in) - there's a link at the bottom of Capcom - to summarise - the side quests are intended to run in parallel to the main one - which is why some people have issues with them starting/failing at different times. The slides are at around 37min (note these aren't the quests in the final product)
- I don't know how to present all the side quest information in a clear way -as I noted before - it's spread across multiple pages, with a lot of duplication, and we don't have a proper full game walkthrough.
- I'd suggest some sort of flow chart with the side quests linking off and rejoining at certain points would be the clearest way to show it.
- (Idea) - maybe we should link to the steam guide - that sounds like a good idea and saves a lot of work .. :)
- XuEn (talk)
- Okay, discussing this on a talk page seems quite labourious. Too bad we can't hook up on Discord or at least Steam. I was in the middle of editing the table when I saw Brumbek post here again and decided to check the quest fail stages in his guide. Turns out, this is outrageously broken beyond the point of repair in the original form unless I'm the odd one out and misunderstand the purpose of this table.
- I'm gonna start working on a new table in accordance to Brumbek's guide. I'll probably have to flat out drop the "Stages" concept in this one. It's quite superficial anyway.
- I'm glad to hear the guide is tested and am thankful for Brumbek's effort at compiling it but nothing is ever going to replace a wiki as an uncompromised source of information on a topic. Furthermore, a full guide lacks brevity of a simple table.
- Erquint (talk) 01:10, August 3, 2016 (UTC)
- Done! I'd like someone to factcheck/proofread it.
- The information on quests progression on this wikia is spread over too damn many articles. I propose merging everything into either just one article or a centralized article with links to its more specialized satellites. It should also be mentioned on the main page; as of this moment, there are two "Quests" links on the main page — both leading to category pages(never a good thing in my opinion). Look at Quests — it's a tree of redirects. I'm gonna try making it the central page for quests as the name suggests.
- It's here: Quests
- Erquint (talk) 08:56, August 3, 2016 (UTC)
- I agree we need one page for quest overview. Thanks for doing this work.
- If the page now duplicates the other pages (mentioned above) please feel free to delete/redirect them here. (edit - I se you did that already)
- I'll have a look at the page later.
- Thanks again for your work.XuEn (talk)
- The only thing left in this regard is editing the main wikia page link and maybe some cleanup. Creating articles for some quest-related category pages might be a good idea.
- P.S. Actually, listing Notice-Board Quests would be nice too but I'm not at all ready to do that yet.
- Erquint (talk) 11:50, August 3, 2016 (UTC)